Jasmine Foster 0:00

How many times have you, as a school leader done something to address a need or solve a problem, or just trying to be supportive of your people and thought afterwards? Yep. Nailed it. Only to find out you did not nail it at all. This has been the story of school leaders everywhere this year. And probably every other year before. That's why we've decided to sip the tea. This month with a few teachers, as they share some insight on what teachers actually need from their leaders right now. And in the future. Hey everyone. Thanks for sipping the tea today. I'm Jasmine, and I'll be your host for this episode. We have SITA the wind beneath my wings, my ACE boon cone. Here today as our wonderful cohost. And before we jump right on in, I want to start with saying often we hear that one of the most important aspects of leadership. Is being responsive to the needs of your people. But how can you do that without actually hearing from your people? So we've invited some awesome and special guests with us who are here today, willing and ready to share their perspectives on what teachers really need right now. I am so excited to talk about this. As I said earlier, during our pre-show chat. You know, we've seen some really crazy things happening this school year. And, you know, school leaders are always on the front lines of leading and guiding their people through all of that craziness. And I also know that many of our listeners are school leaders and have probably found themselves missing the mark quite often this year, you know, when striving to meet the needs of their teachers. So. We hope we get a chance to help by sharing some insight and clearing the air. And even, you know, sharing a pointer or two or three. On how to plan accordingly for next year so let's get into it. We have Ulysse Stokes here and we have Brittany Anderson. Both who are ready to introduce themselves to you.

Ulysses 2:32

I'm Ulysses I am entering my I'm in my fourth year of teaching, in Cleveland, Ohio, I currently teach at Dyke school of the arts in Cleveland metropolitan school district prior to working at tech school of the arts. I worked with Jasmine at E-Pro Willard, within breakthrough schools where I was a science and social studies teacher. And prior to that, worked with her in student recruitment recruiting for her school, coaching basketball, and have been doing different things in education in the past, over the past decade. And so, and now I'm teaching and I love it.

Brittany 3:06

Hello? Hello. I'm Brittany Anderson. I am a ninth year Chicago public school teacher. I'm a diverse learner teacher, author referred to as a special education teacher. I am newly national board certified and exceptional needs, which I'm super excited about. Currently my role right now it looks like mentoring to student teachers. So getting some new great teachers to come and do this work as well as part-time instructional coaching at my school.

Jasmine 3:40

So thank you both for joining us and sipping the tea and let's jump right on into it. Like I said earlier we've had a past crazy year or can we, is it safe to say last two years? Wait, when did the pandemic start? 2019. It's been so long that I can't even remember how long it's been since we've been struggled with us in on the educator train. As we have been on that struggle bus train. I know a lot of teachers, you know, are feeling the brunt of that as the actual frontline soldiers, you all do the hard work all day, every day. And it's exhausting. And the thing that you should have in your arsenal is a strong leader or a strong leadership team that can help support and guide you, you know, along the way. And so I'm noticing on the gram on Twitter, blogs, newspaper articles everywhere, you can find opinions from teachers that they're not getting what they need. Right. And so I'm wondering, from your perspective as teachers and leaders, both of you are leaders in your building as well, with the overarching theme, then teachers aren't getting what they need, what is that on? What are those needs?

Brittany 4:58

I'll kick it off with the obvious and then get into, you know, some more granular things. Of course, empathy, empathy is needed more than ever, just because the issues that plague us today are a little bit different. And what I mean by that is we keep hearing mental health is real mental health is real, but more than ever this year, people are literally having breakdowns. Mental health breakdowns were thrusted back into the workplace. The children are rested back into classrooms and it's different. The work is, is extremely hard. You know, people have always said that teaching is hard, but I think leaders don't understand that the level has really increased this year. This time. We're just not, you know, complaining and nagging. The work is hard. We've got academic gaps and social, emotional gaps that consistently overlap every day with, with children. And it may look like it's easy to say that, you know, educators are just complaining and they just want to go back home, which was a huge thing in Chicago, public schools. But they'll work has, has been it's harder. It's harder than ever before. And so the empathy needs to get a little greater. I've seen this year, two people leave because of mental health. And I can honestly say that they are not finessing a doctor. It was honestly putting their sales first or losing their mind or their license. So that understanding has to happen for sure. Now that the work just cranked up a little bit for sure.

Jasmine 6:54

You made a really valid point about, about the empathy piece and really understanding what people are specifically, what teachers are, are going through and having to overcome this year and last year. I do have a follow-up question. When you say though, leading with empathy, it sounds good. But everybody might have a varied perspective, you know, or understanding of what that means. So you want to expound upon that a little bit, because when I hear leading with empathy, I might think of something totally different from Cedar, right? Or are you.

Brittany 7:31

Exactly. And I'm definitely not looking for leadership to come give me a hug. Like I think it's the support. It's the support factors. So what supports are in place? So with, in the CPS district, you typically you get support if you have a large class size, so you either get support. If your course is spent wrong with a student who needs support, but you get supported with a large class size, it does not matter if there are 10 kids in a room right now, or 40 everyone needs a little bit support. So what that looks like is there should have been maybe like more hires or CPS or not even, even districts in general interventionists or. Kids levels are, are crazy off. You have some kids that obviously did the work and, and studied and, and didn't have a year off or more and they're high and they're ready to go. But then there's that baby who didn't didn't get our remote learning. Never was really too high when they were in your class. And now they miss all of this instruction levels are cell bearing. I think everybody needs support, regardless if they're a veteran teacher, if they're a new teacher and maybe it's not a body, but offering that support regardless, there's a lot of times, a lot of support given some, maybe the squeaky wheel or the new teacher, but now you kind of have to check in or offer support to everyone to release X.

Jasmine 9:06

So you're saying empathy is more so parallel with like support. Okay.

Brittany 9:12

Yeah.

Jasmine 9:13

Okay.

Ulysses 9:14

I think when I was thinking about this question, one of the things, the first word I wrote down with support. to be fair to principals. Principals have been dealt a really crappy hand this year to, to be for real, right, like a lot of firms, especially like districts, I don't know about Chicago, but Cleveland where, you know, students are moving to the virtual academies and virtual schools and enrollment within certain schools is going down. And that means staff has been getting moved and there's staffing changes. And so now you're losing a teacher here, you're losing the teacher there. And so like, to be fair, to like many school building leaders, they've also been like, where, what support do I have as, as a building leader? But I think the one area that I think the support is needed from a teacher perspective is like the support on managing the behaviors back into school from COVID. Because I think as soon as. Back and it, you know, we knew coming back that like, it was going to be difficult with, you know, getting back into the swing of just being in the classroom, being at school, going through a structured day without, you know, being on your computer without checking your phone without, you know, throwing on Netflix and seeing the top of your head on the camera. Like, you know what I mean? Like that's easy to do at home, but now you've got to follow this structured schedule and you got sixth graders who, you know, their fifth grade year, you know, was completely at home. Their fourth grade year was cut almost two and a half. And so they've had a normal full school year since third grade. Now you're asking them to be middle schoolers. And so the, the, you know, they don't know how to be middle-schoolers. And so I think I think the one thing from, from my perspective for not just middle school, but for all the teachers is like support around. Managing and leading on how to get students back into the swing of things, teach them how to be again. And I think that, that was the, the biggest that week we had going into, and I still think it's probably the biggest need we have moved forward to. Cause I don't think it's been done well so far this year.

Jasmine 11:16

Yeah, yeah. hear exactly what you're saying. So are you saying mostly. You think what is needed still right now and more than likely next school year is just real intentional planning around fostering a safe and welcoming school culture priority. What that looks like with getting kids back in place on structure, routines and expectations.

Ulysses 11:44

And then, and supporting the teachers through that process and not just saying, Hey, we know the Cove, it's been a lot, so let's let let's ease into it. And I think that might've been a mistake too. I think that might've been a mistake that we made in the fall was that like, we're going to ease into this and you know, COVID was this thing. And then we're going to ease into this. And then like, by October, we're like, the wheels are off of this thing. Like we, we messed up here. And so that might've been a mistake, but yeah,

Jasmine 12:11

I think so, too. What I hear you saying, and then I saw SITA and bread also agreeing was that, you know, it might've been a mistake to just ease in. Back into the school year. And I think about how, insane me and SITA would be over the summer planning, the return to school. Heck we used to even just be insane with a week off spring break. Like we call each other on Friday trying to make sure to come back stronger than ever after, like just being five days off of school. And I think like if we, if we're that crazy about two months of summer, or a week for spring break, why weren't we that insane and intense about two years? That's when you need to be planning the hardest and the most, you know, when, when kids I've had those breaks and have most likely for guidance, how to do anything centered around structure and routine. So I guess my follow-up question then is, since you, you mentioned that, you know, school leaders have also been dealt a crappy hand this year, what would be the thing that's within their control and starting off strong and prioritizing school culture,

Ulysses 13:29

last month now, when, you know, we're heading into the last month of school to start planning and prepping what that looks like on return for those PD days, how do we utilize those professional development days that we're in front of teachers what is it that we want to be seen? What is it that we want to happen inside of the classroom, outside of the classroom school-wide and really operationalizing those things and making sure that teachers have the opportunity to engage in that planning process and own that. And then also kind of. And they're piece to what that looks like within their classroom. I think this last year that didn't happen. And also I switched schools, but I also know that it didn't happen for the teachers that were there last year. You know, it never occurred at our building. There was no conversation. Like, you know, what is, what is the beginning of school look like when we come back from this pandemic, it was just kind of like, we're going to go about school, like it's school, but we're going to ease into it because of this. Like, that's it. And so everybody came in, nobody knew what, like what do we do? And everyone's just sitting there and I don't know. And then it was just a mess, but I think really starting now to put the dates and planning and process of what that looks like and giving teachers ownership over it. And then when in the fall. When, you know, you get that pushback, that initial pushback from students or from families or from whatever it may be, that the is there to support you and prop you up and back you up in ways that allows for, you know, that, that culture and climate to take hold in real ways. And I, I don't, think that can happen unless like that work starts now. Does that make sense?

Jasmine 15:15

Yeah, I wrote a piece about that. Like start planning now is April. And so don't wait until if your school year starts in September to start planning in August. And if your school year starts in August, don't wait until July to start planning. And one of the things that I said was there are some resources that are going to be missing in the summer and the primary resource or the most critical resource is y'all the teachers, right? now we need to be talking to teachers to get their perspective and their insight, you know, they were, the, you all were on the lines, are on the lines all day, every day in the front. So, you know exactly what's needed, you know, exactly what the woes are in the classroom and in the building. So before y'all dip out and go play Let's let's get you all, not only feedback and reflection, but input. Right. You know, I always drew the line between feedback and input. Like we don't need anybody coming back and in the fall trying to get feedback on the plans that leaders have made over the summer and trying to redo them. And just two days or three days before the doors open. Right. And so y'all here now. Let's talk about it. Let's get input. With that. I have some follow up questions, cause I know you all have perspectives of both sides of the coin being in a more flex school environment or school district where school leaders are more so free to move about how they deemed right. And then now you all are in more of a traditional, not even more of you are in a traditional school district where. There's a way to be in a way to do. And one of those things, that I know was a shock for me, coming from Chicago public schools to burn through public schools was how little summer I had in Chicago public schools. I had two and a half months of summer, like real summer, like outside summertime shy summer and break through public schools. I had like a month and a half, you know, and I know if you're a leader, you come back earlier than that, right? Like you have maybe a month, three weeks of summer. So how can like how can you advise school leaders to, do it, and as you both are saying, they need to do, which is prepared to teachers more adequately to deal with some of the. The challenges they think they're going to face in the classroom with such limited time, you know, like you both know that the teachers come back what maybe a week before school starts, whereas in charter school districts and other other non-traditional school districts, they have maybe two, three weeks before school started and they return and have that practice time. How can, how can you address those needs and prepare them? You got like what seems to be 10 minutes to do so.

Brittany 18:12

I think we need to, as my school is actually is a huge planner school in my leader. I'm already planning for summer. I can tell you summer dates. I can tell you I just made a slide show about what our theme is going to be what our academic goals are going to be. But what's funny is I feel like of course school, we know that it is supposed to prepare kids for society and teach all of this planning and workshops. I haven't heard, not one thing about discipline. One thing about what our consequences are going to be or what the Dean's role is going to be. And it's crazy to me because as you listened was saying, I think that's where we dropped the ball. We were just like, oh, they're going to just want to be back. And they need to be social. They don't not ask anymore. I can't even learning where I've heard that. And it sounds funny. I'm like, did you for kids how to act? And nobody thought about that and still not thinking about it, like you know, depending on the school, the data might not be that great. But what would it take for someone to be like, oh, maybe it's because of behavior. I mean, behavior has everything to do with meeting your objective and learning. And we can't continue to drop the ball. I think it has not as enough attention as instruction, but we have to prioritize it like we do instruction. And suggestions for that of course, would be like teacher voice. I feel like planning for the summer planning for school, you get a lot of your leaders, voices, right? Your leadership team, your, your prime key stakeholders. But if you think about it, a lot of times, these are the people who were successful in the classroom. Right? of course they might've seen a few behavior problems, but they know how to lightning click check that. Let's bring in those teachers who are just life, you know, I am done let's get their beliefs. What. Could we have done differently? What should we have done differently? What would that support look like for you? I feel like sometimes with teacher voice, we get caught up on key stakeholders, voices, or T teachers that veteran that shining star. But I want to go to the one that, that barely made it this year. And say, what, what can we do as a school? But once again, with that double lands, it's like, what can you do for discipline? You know, your hands are tied on the ladder a lot of ways as well, but I know if we planned as strongly as we did for other things, we have no other choice, but to do better with it.

Cita 20:47

That's the point, Brittany, because I, as I was listening to both of you as a school leader this year and being a former Dean of culture. So meaning that was my realm and that's everything that I did. I feel like as a Dean of culture, I did everything that you all are asking for. I get my role back in March and April. I talked to every teacher in my building and figured out what it is that they thought we needed. My planning over the summer, went into providing more social, emotional learning and CRT and making sure that when they came back, the scholars came back, that we were focused on them learning how to act again, because we knew that they weren't going to, but the problem was, and it wasn't our, it wasn't our planning. It wasn't my roadshow, but it was the time that I had to deliver PD. Stokes is asking for I didn't. I got to make all of these wonderful changes. I got all of my teachers on board. Like I still have recordings from zoom where my teachers are, you know, root and for the things that we are about to do. And then I had a total of four hours of PD out of three weeks, all of the planning and all of the focus was on instruction. And uproar was made about needing to focus more on culture and how are we going to get kids to sit down and hear you and learn this amazing lesson that you planned. If they can't stop talking, if they won't be held accountable for anything. And so most of the PD time out of all this wonderful planning and talking to teachers and getting their input and us even working together to change systems and routines, and to implement things that they thought were, you know, beneficial for our kiddos. I didn't have time to practice. I didn't have time to sit down and model and that Stokes wouldn't S Stokes knows I'm all about practice. I'm all about modeling. I would never come up to you and say, you need to do this. I'll be back in a minute to see it. He knows that I'm going to jump right in with you. And we gonna co-teach at that moment. Or you know, I'm going to show you what needs to be done. I'm going to explain the why and what the impact will be. But unfortunately, after making all those wonderful changes and doing, you know, all of those things, there was no practice. There was no time to show the teacher that was struggling. To rewrite the mindset of my shining star teacher that was used to the way that we did things before, but this is also a brand new to them, you know, because they, they haven't been to school in two years, either. It wasn't time to reshape the mindsets of teachers who wanted to still be at home on the couch with Netflix queen classes, because that's the thing too. And so I completely agree, like we are planning so much around instruction, but instruction doesn't matter. You can't teach a lesson with kids that are not sitting down and ready to learn parents that believe that you may be a glorified babysitter and not the key stakeholder that they are before. COVID when we can have parents in the building. We had an open door policy and they were able to sit in on lessons, help plan events, you know, show up to extra curricular activities like basketball games or just a family fitness night, anything like that. We don't have that anymore. And so how are we engaging our parents and how are we getting them on the, get it back together, team we're not, and it's all, it's literally all because I had four hours of planning. I had four hours with my teachers out of three weeks. And in that four hours, I couldn't have my parent panels and that for hours, I couldn't have my student panels for my teachers. I couldn't have those practice sessions where we run lessons and where I bring actual kids in and tell them how to act so that my teachers can see this behavior happened and misbehavior happened and how to approach it with our new systems. There were routines, all of the things that worked with. In the past have been stripped from us because they're saying that they lost two years of learning, but they've also lost two years of culture and two years of how to conduct yourself in a classroom, in a school building as a learner, as a scholar, how are we still calling them scholars? And we're not letting them be scholarly. So I completely agree. Thank you for that.

Brittany 25:18

consultancy. You need to come on Chicago. Come on.

Jasmine 25:23

So do you about to jump in.

Ulysses 25:25

Well, I was just going to say the parent piece is something else that I was like thinking about when thinking about this things. Like, I feel like we lost them.

Cita 25:33

We did.

Ulysses 25:34

them over the last two years. Either through the pandemic, you know, upset, some of them became upset with the fact that you know, that students weren't going back to school. Right. So I think there was that piece where they're like, Hey, we've been home too long. We think it's time to go back. And then I think just generally I think there was just like, And an anti school sentiment over the past couple of years where parents, I feel like we lost some parents in the process. And I feel like I've never seen parent engagement lower in, in the last several years. And so I don't, that's one of the priorities that put down for like, something to work on for moving forward for next year. Is that like, we need to get the parents back because I, I don't, I think the pandemic and remote learning created an, I don't know if it's an anti in school sentiment or antisemitic, there's something there where like we lost parents in that process and all the, the. messaging around schooling and going back to school, not going back to school, going back to school, not going back. And we're going to go back one day a week and we're going to skip, like, what are y'all talking about? Right. But we're not. And then the other districts that you were going to come back Monday and Tuesday, and then Thursday and Friday, but Wednesdays. No, it was like, what? Like this is just making life hard on everybody. And so I think that parents felt like we made Arnold and now they're like a little bit out on us, which I like I get, I get, but we need them back.

Jasmine 27:09

I agree. And that's, that's gotta be a thing. It's already hard. get getting, and that's met and engagement, let alone satisfaction right from, from parents and families and to do so right now, off of what we're coming off of the year, we're coming off of last two years, we're coming off of, it's going to be even more challenging. So I'm gonna, I want to circle back to that, to Stokes especially if you're saying that that's like one of your top three to prioritize, I definitely want to hear your thoughts and ideas because that's also one of your strongest suits as an educator is getting, you know, buy-in and allegiance from parents. So we want to hear your thoughts. But I'm thinking about this. I have this thing playing over and over and over in my head from my husband. he thinks totally different than I do. And so like when we on opposite sides of the coin on different pages, you know, I'm just ready to go on arguing until he just agree. But he has introduced me to this saying both things can be true. And so I'm thinking see too, you had mentioned the narrow window in the summer. You're four hours out of, of three weeks of teacher planning and practice. Even onboarding is thrown in there for new teachers and you got four hours of that time to get them ready to go live in front of kids after being out of school buildings for almost a year and a half. And you're saying Hey, that wasn't enough time. I can say, yeah, that's right. But I can also say, Hey, maybe on the other side, the other thing that can be true is you could have still been effective. There may have been an opportunity to still teach and coach new teachers and struggling teachers. We had gotten teachers in the middle of the year before, and you didn't have three weeks with them, right. You had a week and how are we able to successfully throw them in a classroom with a week of prep? Right? We did it, but one of the critical things was being up in they business all the time. Like all the time in the classroom, shooting the. coaching, having kids roll us into classrooms on our mobile desk, how obnoxious it looked and just coach. Right. We're teaching them in the moment. That's that's the part, I think Brittany was talking about that on the ground support, being a classroom do more than just watch do some work around here and, and show me how to do, do my job or show me what it is that you're trying to get me to do. And so I think both things could be true. Yeah. Three hours, no. Four hours out of three weeks is definitely not enough time. And I would venture to say, I agree with you with the time wasn't like allocated. But I also think that there was a missed opportunity when you don't plan well in the summer. What's your backup piece? What's your backup plan to do it in the moment. Right. And I think a lot of, a lot of leaders miss that mark this year of, in the moment, coaching like we shouldn't be prioritizing this school year sitting in meetings.

Cita 30:20

I agree with all of that because you made a good point as to getting teachers in the middle of the school year. They don't go through, you know, the summer planning. They don't go through. What we used to call summer Institute, but you hit the nail on the head with the follow-up it's even if I had three, four hours to do what I needed to do, I'm a very effective coach. And so yes, I could have gotten it done at the follow-up, but to Brittany's point and you listen to points before staffing is a problem. And so it was very hard for one I'm the only Dean in the school too. This is our first year at full capacity, and three, we don't have staff. And so it is very hard for me to have my consistent one-on-one coaching meetings, full cycles. As you know, I like to run full CNA, MedU it's full of practice sessions full. Let me get in there and co-teach and model for you. Like I wasn't able to do that while being a science teacher. I wasn't able to do. While being a one-to-one for a scholar. I wasn't able to do that while playing lunch a some days I wasn't able to do that while coaching, not only culturally, but instructionally. And so I wasn't able to be as effective as I know I'm able to be in as I'm known to be. If I can't hold the sessions that I need to. So I don't care about home. You had three hours. Cause I know when I start to schedule my old threes in the first week and you see me every week and we get practice every week and we get followups, you know, twice a week then. Sure. I know I can get you to where you need to be, but I can't do that. If I'm canceling Stokes or three to go teach fifth grade science, if I'm canceling someone else's meeting because I'm covering gym, that's what needed to be done to keep our school afloat. But in retrospect, it didn't it just got worse. And so yeah, each could be true, but I'm still thinking that one is a little more important than others. So let's argue with.

Jasmine 32:30

I don't think we have to. I just think, well, you explained you were doing was exactly aligned with what I was saying. There should have been a prioritization of you being able to do your job. If that was the thing that needed to be addressed and handled the most. Structuring your time and structuring your schedule and placing people where they need to be and being um, wavering about it. That's what it's going to help teachers. If teachers are quitting teachers, like Brittany said, I got, they real doctor note about mental health, you know, and jumping ship because they feel like they're not getting support in a classroom specifically around culture that excuses not my doc is teaching science. Guess who teaches science? I'm a teach science. We gonna figure something out, but my DLC gotta be out there doing the job that needs to be done for the sake of our school and to keep good teachers because there's not just struggling. Teachers hanging on by a thread is good teachers hanging on by a thread right now.

Brittany 33:42

Yeah. I was just going to speak to your point as to like why his behavior PD always lasts. Like even I just thought about my school. Like we will spend so much time on the standards and instruction. And then culture and climate comes in with the little time we have in and they school and they squeeze it. We spend so much time or recruitment and pay really well teachers and. Even consultants all around instruction. Why isn't that equally prioritized for behavior even when there is a PD day or after school meeting, if you think about it, you're usually they're talking about an instructional strategy. I have never went to a PD in their life. Let's talk about how to keep kids in their seats today because that, you know, that's what we really need. So I think there needs to be a shift in that also that education of getting 10 jobs out of one person and the education that's where we, it sounds good, but that's what we mess up because some where the ball is going to be dropped. And when you're a case of the Dean that substitute and, and checking in on this and checking in on that, then how can you effectively lead culture and climate? Same thing was with me while I love the opportunity to coach. I'm also a classroom teacher. And of course I'm going to prioritize my fifth grade babies. When I think about a teacher that is struggling, if I was fully in that role, I don't think that maybe they wouldn't have left. Maybe they wouldn't have left, but we're just pushed and stretched so many ways. So when we think about what is our priority, and you have to really like designate somebody to that role and let them thrive, like that's where we need to be.

Cita 35:31

Well, Brittany, in my opinion, Humboldt. The reason that they don't place such a high priority on culture is because of the school to prison pipeline. We, they spend so much time on instruction because I feel like that's what these black and brown babies need. We need to close the achievement gap. We need to give them this. We need to give them that. And when it comes to culture, they're supposed to just sit down, listen and shut up. And if they don't do it, you in trouble, simple as that. And so when we look at our school systems and things like that, and for those of us that don't go against it, it really is. You shout out you in trouble, you get out of your seat, you in trouble. We're supposed to treat these kids like they're in jail. And if they don't listen, then they don't get an education. Meaning you're suspended and you're going home. And so it doesn't seem like it takes a lot of time to teach that it don't take a lot of time and say, if the kid don't listen, send them out of class and there'll be dealt with you. Don't need 12 hours of PD to do that. That is literally giving them the cookbook to kick kids out of class, but to really have restorative practices and to show children like how it is to be a scholar and to act scholarly that takes time. But schools aren't approaching it like that. They're, aren't approaching it with death. These black and brown babies can only learn, but they can also be amazing functioning citizens. They're just seeing that, Hey, they need to sit down. They need to be quiet or they need to go home. So you don't meet all of these professional developments after school. You don't have to talk about relationship building. You don't have to talk about, you know, how just to be a human in front of kids instead of awarding. You literally just need enough time to tell them to sit down and be quiet and what the next steps are. If they don't in this ad,

Ulysses 37:28

I think to that point though, like I think, you know, we've had these conversations several times in the past about, you know, the idea of compliance and compliance, being the, the ultimate goal in a lot of these spaces, right. Especially in spaces where it's predominantly black and brown kids and it's being led by white teachers. And you know, and so it's like, you know, compliances. Education or learning looks like to a lot of people. And so I'm trying to shift that from, you know, the idea of a culture of compliance to a cultural learning is extremely difficult. And going from, you know, charter school world to traditional public school world, it is just as bad there as it is anywhere else. Right. It's like, it's the same. And that it just, and the difference is, is that, you know, there's a little bit more autonomy within the, the charter school network itself or the school itself to make decisions about students. Whereas from, you know, there's, there's. There's guidelines and things that folks have to stick by and stick to a little bit more in public schools that I think protect the students a little bit more protect teachers a little bit more, to be honest. But at the same time, it's the same piece over and over again, which goes back to what we've talked about over and over again, as like one of the things that I also talked about, like needs focused on moving forward. Is this the idea of like talking about race and equity again, like it's disappeared again, like it's disappeared again, straight up. Like it was, you know what, for a couple of years it was like hot and heavy in education. It was everywhere you looked. It was in, especially during the pandemic and with the summer of 2020 and everything that was happening. And so now it's like gone again. You don't even hear about it in PDs. You don't hear about it from districts. You don't, I haven't seen it come across anything. From a school leader, district leader in the year, at least a year. Right? So like, I think that that's something that continues to show up as like this idea that like, you know, we're going to focus on racial equity when there's hot spots and things happen, but then it'll fade and we'll go right back to doing the same thing we've been doing. And then you get new teachers in, or, and the teachers continue to just that, that learning dissipates or new teachers show up, they never got that learning never participated in those conversations and it never continues to develop and grow. And I think you know, it, it's not happening. It hasn't happened really at all. And in my school year, this year, which is insane that because, you know, every one of my students, the black it's like, what are we doing? And like, and there's a lot of white teachers. And so, and we don't talk about it at all. And it's so weird to me.

Jasmine 40:27

Yeah. a lot we have, we've talked about already. So I do want to kind of shift gears a little bit, you know, we talk about. How important it is for school leaders right now and over the summer. And you know, the, the beginning days, weeks, month of school to narrow their focus and, you know, prioritize things, and get and get it. Right. Right. But there's a lot of things that they can do. And that they should be doing. Nate could be playing tug of war. But that's not an excuse. I'm just saying, it just provides a little context as to like why there have been a lot of marks missed, but not, but, and. I'm wondering though, from your perspective, you know, what's the area or areas of reinforcement you know, as much as school leaders have missed the mark this year and last year, I'm sure there are some, some things that they've gotten, right. Some really important things, like not just like, Hey, that one time they brought pizza to the PD I'm talking about, other things that like, were really like, what's the word high leverage, you know what I'm saying? That they did well this year and that you think should be celebrated and reinforced so that they can continue to do that because just like kids, right. And just like teachers, you know, just like humans period. We continue to do the things that we Are celebrated for it, right. Or that we get shout outs for. So like, what are some of those things that, you were like, yup. Leader, you nailed it.

Brittany 41:59

I think they were really good at getting students student voice this year. Students' social, emotional needs w walking away from teachers, but students, social, emotional needs were definitely the focus. Right. And SEL SEO. They could totally like have moments, or I feel like they've been very, just honest, even I have little ones and being like how they feel, and people are actually listening and trying to new things to address it, even dress code. It's a huge, a huge uniform policies that I've seen. Like you usually get a detention for call home. It was like, no, just have the freedom to express yourself. Just come to school, just come to school, how you are. I've seen that be more lax, but definitely just everyone on before when SEL first rolled out, you had your one teacher pioneer and everybody else I have to teach. Now. There is, there's a mandate, but there's room. You see everyone doing it because principals or leaders, admin really pushed that and bought the buy in of our kids really needed that after the pandemic. So I, I say that they did that really good.

Jasmine 43:11

That's important, but creating buy-in that's important.

Ulysses 43:15

Mine kind of goes back to what a CD was talking about, but we only had for half the year, we only had one admin for a pre-K to eight. So which is almost impossible. And we had. I don't know what happened before, but then we lost a bunch of substitutes. There's no subs, subs were not coming. They weren't showing up. And so PE teachers were getting sick. Right? I got COVID in the fall. I was out for two weeks. And teachers were in no subs. We had no subs, they were not taking the jobs. They just weren't and they still aren't taking jobs. They just aren't. And so what I think, leader our principal and what she did really strong. And I think at other schools within the district, as well as they stepped up and showed up in the classroom for students when no one else would, and so I think. Th the one thing that I think leaders did well as they rolled up their sleeves and got in the trenches with teachers this year, way more because, you know, they didn't, they really didn't have a choice.

Jasmine 44:21

they didn't have a choice.

Ulysses 44:22

The principal definitely had a choice. She could say no. And just, you know, put the teacher, put the kids in random places, but there was no learning going to happen at all. So, you know, she got in there, she taught ELA for a little bit. So I think for me, it showed at least like you're willing to, to roll up your sleeves and get in there with us. And I think that means a lot to, to teachers,

Jasmine 44:46

To see that.

Ulysses 44:47

but that's also to the detriment of the building. Right. And so that happens. But then that means that if she's doing that and I mean, she can't be in other places, which is also like, it might be a bigger problem than just the building level. We're getting to, you know, problems that go beyond that person.

Jasmine 45:08

yeah. Within their country, a realm of control. That's like you said, what you started with Stokes at the beginning, you know, just the hand at school leaders. I won't even just say education leaders, specifically school leaders were dealt this year. Just some really Tough choices when everything's important or when everything seemingly as, as falling apart, what do you patch together first? Like was the lesser of two evils. And I don't end the, this year not having to sit in that seat, like at all. That's, that's really, that's really hard. I couldn't fathom fathom that so those would be the things, you kind of threw two on us. Brittany, I love its student voice and student SEL. What's something that you think your, a school level leader got right. And should prioritize, continuing to get right for next year. And Stokes, you said rolling up your sleeves and doing, doing the work. Are you saying for next year or that was specifically, this year because it was super duper needed

Ulysses 46:17

I think anytime. Teachers can see the principal willing to roll up their sleeves in some capacity and get in there with students. It doesn't have to be like seven for ELA as the ELA teacher. You know what I mean? It can look like a variety of different things, but I think when teachers see a principal, it's like, Hey, I'm going to get in here too. I'm gonna do this. And I'm going to show you how I'm an or model it, or, you know, in different ways that they are able to just show they're willing to do that work. I think goes a long way than someone who may just sit in their office and look out the window or look out the door and be like, you know, that kind of thing. But I think that goes a long way with teachers and, and it doesn't like, again, it doesn't have to be being a substitute teacher. it can look and feel like different things.

Jasmine 47:02

Yeah, they can, that side by side is super important. Cedar, you want to add to that?

Cita 47:09

I actually agree with both Brittany and Ulysses, I think that speaking from an administrator point of view, I think that is what my teachers enjoy most about me. Like not only just the fact that they say they won't, but they enjoyed the accountability factor. They enjoyed that. I held them accountable to be the best that they could be. But the fact that I was willing to do the work on the ground with them, like Jasmine, I'm going to hold your hand and walk with you through the fire

Jasmine 47:45

I did

Cita 47:47

And but literally I think that's what they enjoyed the most. Like my team of float until I did depart, was that they came in every day, knowing that no matter what fire may be started, like I was going to be there and I'm walking into it first. I am going to make sure that in the nine hours that we're here, I am going to do my best to make it the easiest nine hours. And I'm going to take the bus for you. So That's what we got. Right. But also where we went wrong, to be honest,

Jasmine 48:20

Yeah, I think I'm hearing a lot of sentiments just around like deciding to I guess back off on what's been most important just because we've had, we've entered a pandemic and I know that's a huge generalization but there's less like sitting with me. Like there's a billion dollar book industry around getting the first few days of school. Right. All of these books and seminar authors talk and preach about the importance of starting the year off strong. And to Brittany's point about what she's planning right now with her team for next year. Like those first, those plans don't even include. Starting the year off, strong with culture. Right. So you just mentioned, we decided to ease back in without prioritizing strong routines and procedures and what it looks like and means to make kids reach expectations or your high bar of excellence or whatever phrase you use to just say, hold kids accountable. Right. And then see the, you add so hours out of three weeks to start the first 15 weeks or first 90 days of school. Right. You know? And so if that's what we've been doing for so long and has been proven effective, maybe it's time to revisit the tried, tested and true, you know, way of doing school and having an effective start to the year. Especially right now when consistency and prioritizing what's most important. Works. I also here along those same lines, support and empathy and being present. And I think there's a lot of overlap between what you all are saying about the importance of coaching. I would be lying if I didn't say I've talked to a bunch of school leaders who have said the last thing my teachers need right now is me coaching them. I mean, and that's cool. Like a lot of school leaders entered with that thought along the lines of Ulysses let's ease back in. Right. But that's not what teachers need. You know, I put on, I was on the gram a couple of weeks ago and I asked teachers like, what is it something that you need right now that you're not getting? And most of them said coaching in that crazy, this point in the school year,

Ulysses 50:44

I think to the point that though, like, I think going from charter school world to where I'm at now and traditional public schools, I would say that the traditional, that, that culture and climate of my school is that the majority of teachers don't want to go to. The last thing that they would ask for from leaders would be coaching. I don't want to be coached on and given feed. That's what that's, that's not me personally. I'm talking like that. That's the, that's the sentiment that I get from the teachers that I am, I work alongside now. And so I don't know if that's just been the culture and climate of the school for a while, or that's because of the nature of the district. And But it, it's definitely a different different, different climate as opposed, like when it comes to coaching and feedback compared to other schools. And obviously, you know, that can probably credit point to data and say, well, this is, that makes sense. You know what I mean? So like, yeah,

Jasmine 51:53

it's kind of a, you know, a damn if you do a damn, if you don't kind of thing, because, then in essence support looks like doing the job, you know, and at school leaders got, they own job is not teaching, you know what I'm saying? So the role of coaching is to be able to make them the deans and the principals have their own classroom. And if they're struggling. as the expectation would be like, Hey, school leader, getting here, let me sit down. Cause I don't want to coach in a feedback. I just want you to fix it. Like what what's or what's the middle ground, you know? I don't know. I guess the teachers who responded to my Insta and now that I'm thinking about them, they did like possess a certain growth mindset or at least a certain reality. they knew that coaching was what they needed now, whether they wanted it or not, they at least acknowledged it was something that they needed because that was the question was something you need that you're not getting. And I would be curious to know how your school leader. Address that. I mean, if you're a K eight, it's not like she can get in there and teach all of the classrooms. She has to equip the teachers to be able to do it well. Right. So, Hmm. I don't know. As we get close to wrapping up the school year and beginning a new one, hopefully planning a new one. What's the number one thing that you hope your school leader or school leadership team prioritize is doing well and thoughtfully.

Brittany 53:29

I want them to be thoughtful about discipline, knowing the discipline needs of students after COVID, we've talked about the trauma impact, that academic impact, but what does this look like is the plan. And I'm not talking about punitive, but restoratively, what practices have to be in place. What has to be in the instructional block to support this? What hires do we need to support this? And, and making this just as a strong priority as academics. Additionally, what would I say that we need? I think they need to be more genuine about mental health. It is always like a self-care day. It's like a safe self-care day, but if you, if you call off, you might even have anxiety or you might get that email. So. Maybe shifting towards what does mental health look like for an educator? Maybe that's the, I don't want to say the new hot topic, but a topic that should be thought of and explored to keep good people around.

Ulysses 54:41

So the one thing it has to be around the culture and climate piece and what the vision is for how to build a positive school, culture and climate. And. Look like what are the things that we are going to implement and how does it get carried out in the classroom and out of the classroom and what do we expect students to see and deal? And so I think like that, that's it for me. Cause I think we, our current school culture and climate's a fairly poor, I would say from a, from a whole building perspective. And I think that's the area that the one area that we really need to focus on and improve upon. And so that's what I want to see.

Jasmine Foster 55:34

Yes. Good. Good stuff, family. And on that note there you have it. That's the T thank you so much, Brittany and Ulysses for sharing your insight and your wisdom with our listeners. We hope we've dropped a few nuggets in your bucket. And giving you something to think about as you're closing out the school year and embarking upon a new one. Don't forget to like, and share this month's episode with your village. And if you'd like to learn more about our special guest. Visit our website@theenrichededucator.com slash podcast again thank you for sipping the tea with us and we'll see you again soon